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More Equality for All Dreamers. Less favoritism. Less cliques. #92
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Not everyone has a fan club that likes automatically likes their dreams, regardless of the quality. There's great images on DDG that go unseen. It would be great if it wasn't so clique-y. Maybe these ppl all know each other or live in the same village or something, but it's a shame that really good images don't get the likes they should and go un-noticed. It's the same ppl every time getting all the likes, comments and the spotlight. It's not based on the quality of the work. It's an AI platform, not a popularity contest.
I’ve wondered about this too: I’ve come across such beautiful works that had very few likes. I paid attention to the artists behind these pieces and noticed something: they are stingy about liking other artists' work themselves, which means fewer users end up seeing their own paintings. Another factor is that they exceed the posting limit, so their work doesn't show up in the feed.
Same opinion. The works of subscribers of a plan are automatically set "first row", ...even if it is the same old cats and pets.
That's just not true, Rainer. Anyone who gets a lot of likes is doing so on their own bat, usually. There is a group on here who exchanges tries, and that artificially raises them in stats. Seems it isn't literally cheating, so that will likely continue. I'm no longer hovering around the top because I'm not on here as much. But apart from being certain to like images and only posting one image at a time, I have no group of supporters or anything similar. No cliques. Some of us just get on with it and post the best images that we can - one at a time. Posting lots of images will get you a lot less likes per image.
I do agree that seemingly the same Dreamers seem to occupy the same top spots all the time. Obviously they are good, but on most days (in my opinion) there are equally good images way down the order! There must be something in the setup that predicates this result, even if it is just that giving out very large numbers of likes and comments tends to get very many 'return' likes. Reward for lots of input I suppose - but that doesn't really make one's images better.
Perhaps the receiver of a like shouldn't be able to return a like within a certain number of hours - or something along those lines.
Yes, we all live in the same village, Planet Earth.
This is one of the reasons I haven't really built myself up here — because it's hard... I've been lucky that people use my images to create their own. That's the main reason I've gotten as far as I have, but it's not motivating enough to make me want to be here, engage, or spend money on a subscription or public my own art!
What? Are we all still in high school, wondering why the Popular Girls don't like us? Every one of us started out as a newbie with no one noticing our work. If you want to be noticed, then participate! Press the "like" button. Add comments to peoples' dreams, ask questions about their process. How can anyone get to know you if you just sit back and quietly publish images. I seldom reach 100 likes, but I am frequently the "Most Commented" - which to me, is just as a good an accolade. And as far as "Trying" other peoples' dreams, I don't do it to gain points, I do it to see what happens and to encourage discussion.
You react like on other images, the more your images get snubbed no matter how beautiful.
Correction....the more your don't like
I also think it’s a shame that so many great creations stay largely unseen, and I agree that the best creators aren’t necessarily those who get the most likes. But the problem is that this is just how these systems work. Wherever you have likes and followers and trending pages, you will always have the same phenomenon. If anything, I think it is somewhat less of an issue here than elsewhere (like nightcafé for example), because a) we’re a rather small community and b) we get notifications from likes, so even as a newbie you can garner some attention.
So unless someone comes up with an entirely new concept that replaces what is essentially the instagram-template that the whole world has been using for 15 years, I don’t see what anyone can do about it. It sucks, but it is what it is.
To @Debbie Eh?, I wasn't speaking for myself - I don't care if people like my dreams or not. I know they are good and more than above average bc I work hard at them. I don't need likes and fawning comments to prove my worth. I can only speak for myself: I like many peoples work on this platform. I truly enjoy viewing the gallery. But when I search the wider Deep Dream, I'm astounded by the quality of really good work and it's a pity that they only have 3-5 likes. That makes no sense. Good work should be rewarded. I'm not in high school and I don't care a lick if someone on Deep Dream likes my work or not. I hope I've clarified, not that I should have to.
I like the discussion/conversation here (could wel be in the chatroom i think) But what feature are you actuele proposing?
And the number of likes should be measured against the diversity of the users who like the content. There are clearly groups that only like each other's posts. I’ve even received a message saying someone would only like my posts if I followed them... Why? I’ll like your work when I actually like your work.
The problem is trending really shouldn't be the home page. Also the fact it shows more than 3-5 images is also a bit wonky. Trending should really be what is popular among people you follow or a pool of hastags. I think people have peculiar tastes.
I think I'm on DDG now for 3 years and it took time for likes. Just consistency, and liking others dreams interacting. And I got compliments from other big dreamers that my profile has beautiful dreams. Don't really think its a clique but change your protest into an image 😉
@Sinomine In other words, the number of likes received doesn't necessarily reflect the quality of the image. In fact, the more likes you hand out, the more you get back—regardless of whether your images are actually good or not ;) What you're suggesting would be possible if the likes were anonymous.
Reciprocality is fundamental here, it's just the way it is. I think when new users realize that, they either join in, or quit after a short while.
I'm with DebbieEh? on the likes issue. Participate, generously give out likes, and join the discussions and comments, invest your time, and add to your creativity this way, if you want your dreams to be noticed. It's truly enriching. And try to encourage Newbies! I really enjoy the spotlighting of newly published dreams under the top trending dream - it frequently makes new dreamers be noticed.
A completely different system that ought to get the 'best' images to the top of Trending would be something along the following lines. Images would be submitted as now but for 36 hours would be completely anonymous and would not show in the submitters own public pages. No identifiers would be allowed on image or in prompt, such as signatures or recognisable symbols. When a submitted image was 'liked', the Dreamer receiving the 'like' would see that a 'like' had been received, but not at this stage who had 'liked' it (alternatively who had 'liked' it could be shown, but no 'return' likes would be allowed to that Dreamer until 24{?} hours after receipt of the 'like'). Similarly comments would be seen by the receiver but (until the 36 hours had expired) not who had given the comment. As now 'try-its' would be anonymous. Should DDG management decide to allow 'try-it' users to choose whether prompt originator could see who had 'tried-it', that could kick-in as the 36 hour period expired. The problem with such a system could be that there was less incentive to be as active as at present. One added bit of interest would be that the Dreams author could be revealed just after a 'like' was given (but only to the 'like' giver). Maybe other incentives could be given: for example energy bonuses for a certain number of (hopefully constructive) comments given over a specified number of words per comment. Would be useless giving bonuses for number of 'likes' given as some people would then just click 'like' on everything. Another problem would be the Cat issue. To stop the Trending being top-heavy with Cat Dreams one would need a totally separate Trending Cat stream!!
There would need to be another stream covering, say, 36 - 48 hours after submission. This is where one would see which Dreamers were the authors of the Dreams that had reached the top of Trending. 'Liking' would NOT be allowed on this page to avoid the 'cliques' boosting 'likes' totals. Obviously 'likes' on prominent Dreamers own public pages will tend to further boost their rankings in 'Best' rankings, but at least everyone would have a reasonably balanced chance on the main Trending page.
Whilst I am writing about my theory - one more thing! The activity onsite varies across the day and therefore, at the moment, the likelihood of receiving 'likes' varies depending on when one submits a Dream. One answer to that could be to include all submitted Dreams in a random pool for the whole 36 hours, so when entering the 'Current Submnissions' tab one would get a random selection of everything submitted within the last 36 hours . The number of already received 'likes' would NOT show. SO - - Home Page could be the 36-48 hour section showing who had done best during their 36 hours in the Pool (Here the Author and 'likes received' would show but further 'liking' not allowed). Next tab would be "Current Submissions' (i.e. the 36 Hour Pool). Then I would put a tab "Doing Well" (This would show ranked by most liked Dreams from 36 hour pool - but WITHOUT the ability to 'like' further). If Feed were retained at all it would only show submissions after the 36 hours had passed. Hopefully this isn't all too obsvure!
I love positive feedback as much as anyone but no matter how many images I put out, they rarely get shown or their never stuck on the top of the feed like some artists... change that for everyone's sake!
On reflection, I think Dreamers like to see the very latest submissions, so I would modify my suggestion for the "Current Submissions" tab. At any new opening of that tab, one would, as now, see the very latest Dreams submitted (though now anonymous). When however one went beyond that first page one would see a randomly selected choice of anonymous Dreams from the entire 36 hour Pool (maybe excluding all that had already been seen by the viewing Dreamer). Apologies for boring everyone, but I really do feel a model ought to be developed where Dreams don't get masses of likes simply because they've already got masses of likes!
I agree, this is a problem with the trending page, you end up with showing the same artists work over and over again. Neglecting the brilliant work of so many other talented dreamers. Right now, it feels like being stuck on Groundhog Day seeing the same stuff again and again.
In the chat DDG shared a view on getting more attention for your dreams. see the post on 15 september 15:06. they encourage to invite friends and colleagues on to DDG to get followers that know you. And with that forming cliques as they are named here in this thread. So its not a bad thing.
In other words getting likes for being friends! Hardly a way of rating the quality of an image.
By all means invite friends to join DDG because it is a very enjoyable site and gives the tools needed to produce great images. Not to get pals likes.
I think this might have multiple reasons: Some Dreamers constantly creating great images but some of them wonder why some images get much more attention as those they like the most themself. Some of the Likers seem to prefer "pleasing" images or the trending algorithms sort those images out that do not look pleasing. Some of the Dreamers seem to have a broader fan group than others who may like whatever has been created. Some Likers may just check the Trending section only and just the first three pages. WHO KNOWS?
Hi Paul. I've analyzed your page... your a member since 2021 yet you've only published 17 dreams. You have received a total of 315 likes... yet you've only given 30 likes. I think you're making out like a bandit. What you need to do is a bit more "politicking"... give more likes to get more likes. I swear, this is the first time I am seeing your screen name. The same names get better positioning because they play the game of reciprocation. There are some that dump 20 dreams in one sitting, then expect a ton of love when they themselves are tight with giving likes. That's a selfish attitude. My advice: give likes to get noticed. Publish 1 to 2 dreams max a day and reciprocate the likes. It took me a year to learn that. Good day to you sir. I will be following you.
As this thread is based on a Feature request. I assume that the poster has in mind that something needs to be done about it. I just pointed out how DDG looks at it. Most of what has posted here is more an issue for the chat room, but that's just my opinion.
Well it is called "trending" ... if you want to trend maybe suggest specific improvements? Algorithm is open https://deepdreamgenerator.com/how-trending-works
If you want a more tailored experience - we have the Feed.
@Unreal I would love for dreams to be rated on their merit alone, and not author's networking proficiency. But wouldn't your system mean that an average voter would be exposed to a much larger amount of low quality dreams? People would riot :D
Cheers Gronk, You could well be right about seeing too many low quality Dreams. Perhaps rather like currently there is a High Score section under Latest, my suggested system could keep all Dreams in radom Pool for 3(?) hours, then leave out of revolving Pool those below a certain number of likes for the remainder of the 36 hours. That should solve that aspect I would have thought. The critical aspect I was attempting to address was to stop the tendancy of Dreams with a lot of likes getting lots more likes because they already got a lot of likes. If Dreams were anonymous, equally likely to be seen throughout the 36 hours, and with hidden number of likes - then surely the quality of the image would be the thing to attract likes!
Then in, I suggested, the 36 to 48 hour pereiod after submnission everyone would find out who the authors of the Dreams were and how many likes they received.
No no. What I meant is you suggest a fair system == dreams would have equal number of eyes on them - both low and high quality. Basically as I understand it your system can't work without low quality dreams being seen a lot. It probably can be fine if there is like 10% of those, but imagine if it is like 50-90% - which is more realistic I'd imagine. But of course I have no idea about an average user's taste/tolerance. (naturally I'd love to be wrong)
Actually, in my suggestion (as updated in my last post), one would probably see less low quality images than currently. At the moment when one goes to 'Latest' one obviously sees good and bad in proportions submitted and this continues as you go to next page, and each subsequent page. If second page and every subsequent one was from the random revolving Pool, the system would have removed from the pool all Dreams that hadn't reached a certain number of (hidden) likes within 3hours. 3 hours is a small proportion of 36 hours and therefore you would see far less proportion of low quality Dreams than one currently does!
One other observation: In the weekly challenges where everyone is anonymous until the results are announced - the same Dreamers who usually populate the top of Trending do NOT occupy the top spots any more than many other Dreamers. Surely that demonstrates what is wrong with the Trending system.
I disagree that there are "cliques". Some Dreamers just have a vast followership and are well known, yet sometimes dreamers pop up and get a lot likes and end up in trending with their first images, like Ev and JMJ did. We all have to admit: The DDG-community has a certain mainstream taste. When I create dreams I know from the beginning which will go trending in Top 10 and which of them will struggle to get 70 or 80 likes, no matter if I gio 1k+ followers.
I’m with @Debbie Eh? and @Zettel on this one:
Debbie, the high school comparison is spot-on; I’d even extend it to the high school prom—for some people, it’s likely all about becoming prom queen or king and, ideally, never giving up the crown. In terms of the level of discussion, though, I’d often want to downgrade from high school to kindergarten; that’s sometimes what it feels like to me. I feel the same way about the "Try it" feature; it’s a sign of appreciation—both toward me and the other Dreamer. You often strike up a nice conversation and enjoy lovely moments within the community. Sometimes I even think, "Wow, the AI—or the Dreamer, through their own tweaks and modifications—really got even more out of it and achieved a better result than I did," and that makes me really happy.
And Zettel, you wrote that beautifully. I don’t create mainstream Dreams either; I focus mostly on fantasy and sci-fi. I get fewer likes as a result—partly because I publish four Dreams at a time instead of just one. But is the like count a big deal? Does it bother or upset me? No, definitely not. Like Debbie, I’m much happier getting comments; I do this for the creative fun of it—as a hobby, without any pressure or obligation. I don’t play the "Game of Thrones" regarding who ends up on the throne. I’m here to share nice moments with the community and exchange ideas so I can grow. Let's have fun together and bring joy to the community!
There is, therefore, no need to resort to personal insinuations or wild conspiracy theories. Acting rudely, uncivilized, disrespectfully or hatefully—doesn’t prove you have "better" arguments; in fact, the exact opposite is true. Amen!
There are clique heres! They have always been here. Just like on other platforms.
One of the reason I don't pay for the service anymore is because if the cost and the FB cliques. DDG is expensive compared to other platforms that offer more tools.
But it's also the same names at the top with 100+ likes a hour after they post a image everyday.
It makes the place BOOOOORING! People come here and they put in good work only to see the same names in the leaderboard with 250 votes EVERYDAY. BORING!!!
Just make all your images of woman doing any ordinary pose, add a dog or cat and you'll get lots of likes here. Otherwise you have to be a member of a FB voting club.
Or do this: (I refuse to play this game)
Spend your day just liking every image in the feed. You get I think 500 likes in 24 hours? Then you just wait for maybe a 100, 200 of those people to like your image. But you have to be in their clique or they won't vote for your image. And if they do, they'll vote for an image you put up last week so you're not competing with them. Welcome to DDG clique 101.
@Zettel Said what I wasn't going to because people will get triggered.
"The DDG-community has a certain mainstream taste."
Yes it does.
I didn't even need to say it. I've posted and tested it here a few times. Using the exact prompt only asking the Ai to change the skin color and the votes were lower each and every time for the image with a non white person in it.
DDG you DO have a small image problem. You can't see it, but it's right on the first pages everyday. Other people notice it. But fish don't really know their swimming in water until you remove them from it.